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Its pretty Obvious what is going on here (in regards to the Lumia 950/950XL)...

Polorboy
Miembro

My theory from observations and speaking with both Microsoft and Verizon employees regarding the 950 and 950XL:

1) Verizon doesn't care one bit about its customers, all they care about is getting the maximum $ from everyone (happy or not)

2) Apple issued them an ultimatum stating "carry Microsoft phones, we pull our iPhone".

I had switched to T-Mobile awhile back (was forced back to Verizon due to no cell phone coverage whatsoever with T-Mobile).  What caused me to switch was Verizon turned my Android phone into a paper weight with an OTA update that failed.  They refused to replace the phone with a new one (they broke it, not me) and sent me several "refurbished" aka "still broken" phones.  They don't actually fix phones that get sent back to them, they just put them in "like new" boxes and mail them out to people as "refurbished".  After spending several days of calling Verizon tech support, who also had to call Motorola tech support, who didn't know how to fix it either, I just switched to T-Mobile.  If T-Mobile actually had cell phone coverage in my area I would have stayed with them.  I actually use my phone as a phone, so I need to make and receive phone calls.  Of course Verizon was all to willing to bend over backwards to try to get me back but nothing has actually changed. 

The Lumina 950 and 950XL are in fact technologically capable of working on Verizon's network, as a matter of fact the phones are designed to work on every possible network available regardless of carrier.  It is possible to get a 950 to work on Verizon's network, but Verizon does everything it can to make that connection the worst possible.  When you go into a Verizon store and tell them you want a 950, they say "You don't want that phone, you want an iPhone instead".  That is literally what they say.  Not, we don't carry that now, here are some alternatives.  No, they have the nerve to tell me that I don't know what I want, and they can tell me what I want.

Verizon's sales people are the most under-educated group I have ever met in my entire life.  I have not yet met a Verizon sales rep who actually knew how a phone actually worked or what the differences were between the major competitors (Android, iPhone, and Windows).  They had no idea that Android phones running early versions of Lollipop actually blocked users from saving data to "external" memory cards.  This was only recently fixed in an update from Google and only because it allowed developers to let the user decide to allow the app to save to an external card.  Also, they have no idea how iPhone's actually work, the fact that when you install an app in an iPhone and save data with it, that data is stored in the directory the app is installed in (which the user has no control over).  So, if you take a picture with one app, it saves that picture in the app's directory.  If you then use another app to edit that exact same picture, it actually does not edit the original but save another copy (leaving the original picture alone) in the directory of the app that did the editing.  So, taking a picture and then editing it now causes you to have two copies of the same image, though one might be "hidden".  So, if you were "smart" enough to take a compromising picture of yourself and try to edit out the "compromising" part, guess what, your iPhone still has a copy of that "compromising" picture stored on it and you have no way of ever deleting it.  If someone hacks your phone or your phone stores it in Apples cloud and someone hacks that, guess what... your "compromised" picture is their in all its glory.  The Windows phone's I am still learning about myself but essentially operate the exact same way the Windows desktop operating system does, so no restrictions on accessing the file system (apart from the normal Windows ones we have been using for the last 20+ years, i.e. administrative privileges, user mode, etc)

I have seen several responses from "Verizon Customer Service" on these forums that also tell me they don't care.  They respond once, with the exact same response to every complaint about not having the 950/950XL.  It is like they are feigning stupidity and have the reaction of "Lumina 950?.... whats that?" like they have never heard of it before.  Apparently Verizon's customer service is as ignorant to the product they sell/support as their sale's people are.

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Re: Its pretty Obvious what is going on here (in regards to the Lumia 950/950XL)...

primortal
Sr. Member

Item 2 is utter bs.....

Granted the 950/XL could work on VZW network but Microsoft disabled the necessary antenna's for whatever reason. So there is no how no way these devices can work presently.

Re: Its pretty Obvious what is going on here (in regards to the Lumia 950/950XL)...

deloused
Sr. Member

"My theory from observations and speaking with both Microsoft and Verizon employees regarding the 950 and 950XL:

1) Verizon doesn't care one bit about its customers, all they care about is getting the maximum $ from everyone (happy or not)

2) Apple issued them an ultimatum stating "carry Microsoft phones, we pull our iPhone".

You're correct, the most important thing to Verizon and all the other wireless carriers and manufacturers is profit. That's an interesting conspiracy theory regarding Apple.

"I had switched to T-Mobile awhile back (was forced back to Verizon due to no cell phone coverage whatsoever with T-Mobile). What caused me to switch was Verizon turned my Android phone into a paper weight with an OTA update that failed. They refused to replace the phone with a new one (they broke it, not me) and sent me several "refurbished" aka "still broken" phones."

Just keep in mind all the carriers replace warrantied devices with like-new. T-Mobile actually adds a charged fee to the bill of each customer they provide the privilege of processing a like-new warranty device to because they also care most about money.

One reason smaller carriers such as T-Mobile offer a variance of device options is to be an alternative reason for  customers to switch to them from competitors so they can make more money, again the most important thing to every company.

"When you go into a Verizon store and tell them you want a 950, they say "You don't want that phone, you want an iPhone instead". That is literally what they say.  Not, we don't carry that now, here are some alternatives.  No, they have the nerve to tell me that I don't know what I want, and they can tell me what I want."

I find that annoying too I walk on sales people myself. I agree as I also know what I want and why, and it totally sounds like you also know what you want and why, but the reality is, most customers do not really know what they want and why, they want an iPhone because a friend has it, or a Windows phone for a camera, or Android for an app but uncovering the how's and why's for the majority of customers. That's why the sales people have to ask those millions of annoying questions to guide the customer to the 'best available' device they have for them now. While this process does mathematically work, it lowers returns, lowers store wait time for returning and regular customers (one of their biggest complaints out there) and lowers fees, it also raises employee morale due to processing more commission sales than returns. (customers like dealing with happier employees and this is a win-win.)

The fact is when Verizon did sell Windows, Blackberry, Android and Apple devices the return rate for Windows was significantly higher than Blackberry which was higher than Androids, and in turn Apple was the lowest return rate they had on smartphones. It is normal sales behavior anywhere to offer more popular devices that do not get returned.

However, Windows and Blackberry devices are absolutely the right device for some consumers, it is way more cost effective for any company to be processing more sales than returns on particular devices due to the cost of the equipment, training, and marketing. The most common reason for the returns were customer comfortability with the operating system, as most of the customers that had a proper sales consultation and were recommended a different operating system based on how they use their phone, apps, or what types of tablets and computers they have experience with did actually come back to return them after being told it wasn't the best choice for them based on the info they provided. It's just a huge red flag- they lost money on the equipment, customer satisfaction, restock, revenue and profit to wait, return, set up new devices, employee time, and training for a few examples.

If they were big in more operating systems they would need to increase so many costs (passing more costs on to us), network and software testing, training time away from the job which again increases wait time and decrease satisfaction and revenue. As established because they care most about profit, what would cause them to offer more Windows phones is if their profit was suffering by losing customers switching to other carriers due to purchasing a different type of phone that they didn't offer. And while some have sure switched due to just that reason it's just not a high enough number to negate such a change and the negative impacts to the majority of customers, employees and revenue. More customers switch due to price, so you see more pricing evolution occur, new carrier contract buy outs, and yes even new devices. Verizon lost too many customers for their liking (and therefore money) in the past to AT&T due to the iPhone, and lost too many customers than they liked (money) to T-Mobile with new carrier incentives so that's what makes change, when enough customers care about something to affect the bottom line. The fact is, this is actually a more logical business plan for such a large carrier. Just as its logical for other carriers to offer different options to raise their profits from compete. It's not that they don't care about customers, but it's smart business to focus on the majority, where they get the most profit. In fact, by making some of those changes I mentioned the past it actually shows they care.

You're a good example, as you mentioned you switched back for service, the Windows devices weren't enough to keep you or enough customers gone. if enough customers ever leave to other carriers for Windows or Blackberry devices and revenue suffers then such things could change. It's not too likely given market share but anything is possible.

"Verizon's sales people are the most under-educated group I have ever met in my entire life. I have not yet met a Verizon sales rep who actually knew how a phone actually worked or what the differences were between the major competitors (Android, iPhone, and Windows).  They had no idea that Android phones running early versions of Lollipop actually blocked users from saving data to "external" memory cards. Also, they have no idea how iPhone's actually work, the fact that when you install an app in an iPhone and save data with it, that data is stored in the directory the app is installed in."

Wow I've met some bad and good employees but for me the government and cable company workers have been the least educated. But you are also placing undue expectations by expecting Verizon employees to do the jobs of reps from Apple, Google, Microsoft, Samsung etc. Verizon employees simply cannot be trained on every facet of every device especially given how frequently things change. They are expected to be experts in Verizon systems, policies, procedures. Those companies also provide their customers with customer service, tech, sales, warranties and they are the ones who are and should be experts on their specific product and contacted when appropriate. Like if something happened with my TV itself and not a wire/cable box I'm contacting Sony, not Comcast.

"I have seen several responses from "Verizon Customer Service" on these forums that also tell me they don't care.  They respond once, with the exact same response to every complaint about not having the 950/950XL.  It is like they are feigning stupidity and have the reaction of "Lumina 950?.... whats that?"

It's not that they don't care, it's that customer facing employees are not provided with training or info on products until they are pretty much just about to sell them so they get the best info and its fresher in their minds when applicable. Employees being taken away from serving customers to learn about a future potential product, not confirmed, finalized, open to speculation or leaking confidential or legal info well before launch (in time for them to forget all the knowledge that many things could change before launch) for something that could change or be cancelled and then after said changes be removed for more training would again be a downer for the employees, customers which all equals money to them.

Asking about a potential future unconfirmed unannounced device whether a 950 or the iPhone10 or GalaxyS12 will always and has always garnered the same response, not just Windows, but LG, Moto Apple etc. in fact announcing changes too early has a negative affect on profit/sales as some customers may wait a really long time for a phone to come because 'they said it was coming out'. Or when a feature or date with a new product changes which often does prior to announcing it those customers that were given information that was no longer correct later get mad and that's another customer dissatisfaction issue for them to deal with.

With the tech knowledge you have you are obviously more knowledgable than most Verizon employees regarding their equipment, but don't forget to look at the bigger picture. Based on market share, the amount of customers that actually leave and stay gone and for which reasons, their profit margins, revenue, churn rate and the fact that employees can be biased towards believing in devices they've lost money on by having the majority of customers they saw with a Windows phone complain about it and return it to them it would be a poor business decision at this time to cater o a very small number of customers that say they'll leave for a particular reason but then don't. It would be an investment that would not pay off overall for Verizon, or the majority of its employees or customers. They would only make such an investment if it was likely to pay off for them but it's not based on history like any business, and it would not be logical for them to invest more in a device platform than what they've proven they can make without it. I would question a companies reasoning if they were to invest in a similar product they have lost too much in the past.

Back in the day some people also complained there wasn't Windows phones support and customers wanted the Trophy. That was a bomb so some customers still complained and wanted the Kin. That was a worse bomb so repeat complaints, and ditto on more complaints and then they tried the Icon and that other one that bombed (icon did slightly better but not well enough for their goals.) Ditto for most past devices before that and will certainly occur again.

To summarize, if you need help with Verizon service, contact them, if you need Microsoft etc for their products you'd be better contacting them. And if you want to know about a future product, you'll want to contact a psychic hotline instead as its been established for many years Verizon customer service does not have access to future unconfirmed plans or products so continuing to complain, and ask the same questions over and over (insert different devices/software launches) and get frustrated over and over is just a losing battle.

If Microsoft or Windows phone manufacturers really want a company like Verizon to bite in again after so many losses they would likely have to offer subsidies or incentives to have more people get into their devices so an anticipated loss wouldn't occur again. But again Microsoft is also a for profit company so it's not that likely they'd give it up either.

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Re: Its pretty Obvious what is going on here (in regards to the Lumia 950/950XL)...

SickFreak
Sr. Member

Polorboy wrote:


I have seen several responses from "Verizon Customer Service" on these forums that also tell me they don't care.  They respond once, with the exact same response to every complaint about not having the 950/950XL.  It is like they are feigning stupidity and have the reaction of "Lumina 950?.... whats that?" like they have never heard of it before.  Apparently Verizon's customer service is as ignorant to the product they sell/support as their sale's people are.

VZW doesn't sell the 950/XL at all, so going into a store and asking for one won't get you one.  When I left VZW a few days ago over this issue, I made sure to call VZW and confirm that my account was closed and explain to them exactly why I left.  We can only vote with our dollars.

Re: Its pretty Obvious what is going on here (in regards to the Lumia 950/950XL)...

dexman
Sr. Member

Despite the fact that the 550 and the 950s processors can operate on VZW's network, Microsoft did not submit the phones for CDMA certification. Microsoft purposely restricted the phones to GSM networks. This locked out the customers of VZW, Sprint and their respective resellers.

Had Microsoft gone ahead and gotten CDMA certs and paid whatever licensing fees to Qualcomm, VZW would not be able to block network activations without getting slapped with fines by the FCC and the possibility of losing the rights to operate on certain frequencies.

If VZW chose not to sell any of the phones in its stores, one could simply go to a Microsoft Store or an independent dealer like Best Buy,  purchase a phone, take it to a VZW Store, put it on the counter and tell the rep to activate it.

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Re: Its pretty Obvious what is going on here (in regards to the Lumia 950/950XL)...

Geebox
Novice

I saw this the other day, I'm reposting this from Primotal's post on another thread. VZW is either clueless or they purposely are dissing Windows Phone with a quote like

" Verizon has chosen to not carry the Nokia Lumia 10 in its retail channels."

  For real!, I think it is a purposeful diss.

http://www.neowin.net/news/verizon-provides-further-context-to-the-restriction-of-the-lumia-950-fami...

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Re: Its pretty Obvious what is going on here (in regards to the Lumia 950/950XL)...

primortal
Sr. Member

It almost sounds like something said from a brick-and-mortar store manager or custom services rep

I'm in no hurry to replace my Icon at the moment.  Hoping Microsoft announces a "Surface Phone" early next year.

Re: Its pretty Obvious what is going on here (in regards to the Lumia 950/950XL)...

primortal
Sr. Member

Reading the comments on the article http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1280134-verizon-provides-further-context-to-the-restriction-of-the...  this struck me as, WOW.

Microsoft did pursue the Open Development Certification, and Verizon wanted a pile of money that was outside the costs this process normally takes, using excuses about WM10 being untested and new and technologies in the devices being new and on and on. (Microsoft considered fighting this in court, but at best it would have won them an even worse relationship with Verizon.)

Re: Its pretty Obvious what is going on here (in regards to the Lumia 950/950XL)...

Geebox
Novice

Yep, would love a true Surface phone, fortunately I'm in a position to get it too if they make it. So far all is good with my new 950XL on ATT and cheaper. Keeping my fingers crossed.

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Re: Its pretty Obvious what is going on here (in regards to the Lumia 950/950XL)...

Geebox
Novice

primortal wrote: 

Reading the comments on the article http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/1280134-verizon-provides-further-context-to-the-restriction-of-the...  this struck me as, WOW.

Microsoft did pursue the Open Development Certification, and Verizon wanted a pile of money that was outside the costs this process normally takes, using excuses about WM10 being untested and new and technologies in the devices being new and on and on. (Microsoft considered fighting this in court, but at best it would have won them an even worse relationship with Verizon

Geebox: This is sad for consumers.  Even though Windows Phone has a small market share, VZW still could of made some money and kept it's WP customers happy and loyal.

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